Session 3
The great Sparrow, who leads this group, gave an overview of past working groups and then asked the question:
“What ways can you measure and earn trust in the crypto art community?”
Watch the discussion:
The chat was off the charts:
Judy: All our working group videos are on our DADA channel on You Tube and here.
Terrence: cross-platform trust only gets hairy in that the contextual rules change platform to platform, spoken, tokenized, or otherwise. The semantics, the trust tracking system map to different things. It only works by building relationships, can’t systematize that too much.
Ian Grigg (Chamapesa) and Vinay Gupta (Mattereum) on dispute resolution:
This is more extrinsic than in, but the chamas model is talking about extending the social graph the same way.
Who vouches for you is what it comes down to. But it only works by building the initial relationships before trying to artificially extend them
Jake: We also need to keep in mind that there are different ways of thinking and like you say, different values. There are things happening that I don’t trust at all lol, but it may be adding value in different ways to our community, communitie(s).
Terrence: There’ll hopefully end up enough virtual chamas around that folks can pick and choose a bit.
Is there any number on a website that folks think accurately represents how much they trust a real person? Truly?
Kirk: Haha, yes, Steemit was very traumatizing. Not a healthy model for creatives.
Judy: Haha, you hear me Kirk
Terrence: the whole market is trauma really.
Jake: The Chinese credit system seems very similar to our banking credit system to be honest. The less your credit score, the less you can do in life. The Chinese use it also to segregate Ughurs, and utilize it to imprison people against their will in modern-day camps. In southern American states I see the credit system separating families into neighborhoods in a similar fashion. And when they are from disadvantaged neighborhoods, the vast majority are placed in for-profit prisons, which corporate America companies like MSFT use prison labor.
Judy: Yes, that is a horror.
Jake: I really see not much of a difference between communist china and trump’s America, just the way the politics are read is different.
Judy: Totalitarianism is their wet dream
Jake: I had a discussion with a banker, if you have been using cryptocurrencies, the bank labels you and reduces your credit limit, red flags. It’s a very horrific world were living in and we're being attacked on every angle that we aren't even aware of.
Judy: No wonder I keep paying all my debts and my credit score doesn’t budge, haha.
Terrence: the only option is to build an alternative. Like Bucky Fuller said, gotta make the old thing obsolete by default. Long slog but we’ll get there.
Jake: And now that you’re in New York, you’re a terrorist jurisdiction, absolutely insane.
Judy: You are bringing me down, Jake.
Jake: Don’t worry, i just sent a letter to the justice department lol. I’ll share with you soon, I'm editing for the public.
Lenara: Do we need to have one unified “trust currency”? maybe we should test several possibilities and see which work best. some seem pretty obvious that they won’t work. Also, one centralized trust system sounds a bit scary.
Audsssy: Alliance of communities!
Kirk: In terms of quantifying trust — maybe it’s about ‘rates’ or ‘percentages’ instead of ‘points’ to give it a bit more dimension? Like, true trust is… sticky. It’s social glue and about people coming back to the same people, engaging and looping back. Especially across different mediums and types of content. Just a thought
Judy: Good thought! It could be a visual range like a color line and people would put how much they trust the other person.
Audsssy: There’s a project called SourceCred that tracks uses of emojis in Discord to signal trust and value creation. It is still a WIP but something to consider in the future.
Kirk: ^ Wow that’s super cool
Judy: It could be a visual range like a color line and people would put how much they trust the other person, like a spectrum.
Terrence: I like that!
Judy: We’re DADA so we’re visual.
Marko: Would people be sincere in judging others, even with colors?
Judy: If not, the trust police will come and get them.
Marko: Blue police?
Terrence: Gaming it is always the problem.
Judy: Seriously, there may be ways to frame it so that it is as sincere as possible.
Karen: How to keep people (from) gaming the system? Maybe a trust currency where someone can confer trust points onto you but can’t tell you WHY — so there is nothing anyone can specifically do to get trust points. They just get the points by their peers when peers want to reward for intrinsic reasons.
Terrence: Why I went to “I vouch or not” in the thinking. An intrinsic proof.
Lenara: I think of the keys is the time and interactions. It is not a quick process. People should be able to earn the trust back also in case they lose it.
Terrence: not a mathematics one.
Jake: Coming back to the bank thing, Judy, I’m working on it right now lol, I’ve created my own Bank of America advertisements.
Marko: For example, you can trust someone that he will keep his word (respond to a drawing, complete a collaboration piece), but you don’t trust that person if it will speak against you…
Jake: In Banksy style, re-imagining “Street art” for the digital quarantined world, if Bank of America can advertise their bullshit, so can I :) And with the hidden economy, this gives me the ability to spread awareness.
Terrence: Have someone pick five words to describe their trust in someone. What they would vouch for. Intrinsic, again.
Judy: That’s cool. I thought of the fridge magnets that are words and you can create poems or stories…
Terrence: I’m trying to stay away from“staking value” behind an artist like a Liquidity Pool as a trust measurement thing, but it may resemble that from a high level if the original “trust money” stakes are truly only gotten through intrinsic methods. Honestly, staking value behind an artist is literally putting money where your mouth is and would bring in outside investors easier.
And if you forced them to prove themselves intrinsically first by integrating into DADA before allowing them to do that it might motivate that. Learning the intrinsic, that is.
Lenara: It should take time and be not worth it to do it just to game. like it is right now in DADA.
Terrence: Exactly. Really looking forward to actual models soon!
Lenara: It should be based on actions done by interacting with others over a period of time.
Audsssy: 100%
Kirk: + 1
Massimo: Need to go now. Very interesting conversation. “People are the best algorithms” made my day!
Audsssy: https://metafam.github.io/TheSource/timeline/@metagame/
Terrence: yup, Audssy, gets gamed too easy.
Excellent experiment thought!!
Gotta recruit folks what design mmorpg systems lol
where are even online guys?!?! 🤣
*Eve online
Lenara: In the remix family maybe a way of earning trust would be to submit remixes, but after a few then you have trust. Because you won’t want to create beautiful remixes just to then destroy your trust.
It’s similar to what happens in DADA. To earn enough to be able to go and make destructive drawings, you need first to do a lot of constructive actions. So you would be destroying your own work. Trolls want to destroy others’ work. That’s how dada neutralizes trolls.
Terrence: I like the destructive vs constructive dynamic! Seem different models, but prolly my myopia there. Honestly, I already see power structures in the current DADA setup that could be exploited by trolls or by general apathy or iteration of the processes.
Jake: When you guys do all this research on currencies, we need to help other artists on how to get these things, important writings about social currency: someone go!
Terrence: If it’s a trust token rather than social money! Chamas, ya’ll.
Jake: I want to close all my bank accounts in two years, it’s only a mattress and ethereum for me lol.
Audsssy: could drop Erc20 tokens to those that attend calls as well.
Karen: But again I think it should maybe be for things that aren’t predetermined.
Terrence: In the world of programmable money we can map the real trust to get behavior other than that of default money. Currency vs contracts basically. Different levels of financial engineering. Social money doesn’t do anything by itself but replicates the existing structures.
Jake: You need an economist :)
Terrence: Vinay Gupta and Ian Grigg, y’all.
Jake: Radical economist.
Terrence: been working on these issues for decades in real world conditions. Ricardian contract.
Lenara: Metacurrency project is my link suggestion.
Marko: Social money is fun for playing, but can’t experiment trully… at least I don’t know how to do it… it’s all strictly % value.
Mr. Monk: I just want to add my recommendation for you to see the Black Mirror episode about social media and reputation. “Nosedive” Series 3
Episode 1.
Gus: Great episode.
Jake: Yes we need to get Trump drawing on DADA lol
Kirk: So good. That episode and Trump’s flowery debut on DADA.
Ser Ste: I agree with Judy.
Gus: Bring Trump to DADA, he might change.
Jake: I will start this dada conversation soon :)
Lenara: Trump drawing flowers 🌸🌺💐🌻🌹🌼🌷
Marko: He won’t change, he would try to buy DADA
Ser Ste: but I think a good system will emerge pretty naturally once the IE is in place. Hello, everybody!
Mr. Monk: Serste!
Ser Ste: Hello Mr. Monk!
Lenara: he can buy Bea’s CEO title ;)
Karen: This is like the people who are actively expressing racism on Twitter but the platforms they are on don’t do anything because it didn’t happen on the particular platform. But I certainly pay attention, wherever it happens.
Marko: Trump building trust on DADA!!!
Terrence: Thanks everyone!! Excellent work! Looking forward to proper models!!
Audsssy: Thanks for the great convo!
See ya in two weeks!
